Please join me in this fascinating interview with Jeff de Boer, which is as much a journey, as anything else. Coming up with a title for this interview was the most difficult time I've ever had coming up with a title, since we discussed everything from The Seven Samurai to The Walking Dead, to the martial art, Kendo, to Star Trek, to Calgary's Glenbow Museum, to Dune, to Jeff's career as an artist and sculptor, to of course, how it all relates to chivalry.
Jeff graduated from the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary in 1988, majoring in jewelry design. The first time I met him in 1984, he proudly showed me his jewelry collection. His hobby was also armour making and combining those 2 skills, he quickly became famous for his creation of cat and mouse armour, which he still builds to this day. But, he is now known for so much more. He has a full scale barb-wire horse 'Cyclone' 2006, on display in the Glenbow Museum, the large-scale pair of sculptures 'When Aviation Was Young' in the WestJet departures/arrivals terminal at the Calgary International Airport, always listed in the Top 10 Public Artworks in Calgary. He has also made a name for himself with his Exoform theme and '50s style space-themed sculptures. Sometimes fun, sometimes beautiful to look at, usually both, that is the work of Jeff de Boer in a nutshell. To see more: www.jeffdeboer.com
Me: Today is July 16, 2016 and I’m sitting with renowned Canadian sculptor Jeff de Boer and we’re talking about his life, career and of course, chivalry for the website Chivalry Matters. First question, when did you first develop or formulate the idea of what chivalry is and how has its meaning changed for you?
Jeff: I think that my first formulation of this idea of chivalry probably happened obviously very early in my life. I think that being a creative person and a bit of an outsider, when I was growing up as a kid in school, I wasn't like the other kids in the playground. So I was always questioning myself from a very early age and I think asking myself some hard questions about why am I here, what’s the meaning of life, all the kinds of questions that a great one asks. And then watching movies, I always liked movies about knights and samurai. There would seem to be something going on with these characters why were they heroic and I think that I was always trying to build a an idea of the superhero when I was a kid, so what does it mean to be a hero. I think that's where my earliest concepts about what chivalry was. It was this unknown thing that some people possessed that made them special. So I wanted to be special. I think that would be where my early ideas came from. You know you're not like the other kids and so I must be special.
Me: You must be, if you’re separate from them, you must be special in some way?
‘…this idea of taking on the dragon, was one of the things that formed I think in my psyche, is that I was always going to be fighting something bigger and stronger than myself.’
Jeff: Or you're not. Like you could be dysfunctional, you know that that's another of the side of it. Either you rise up or you fall down. Those are the two things that happen to people. You become what you’re going to become because of, or despite the world around you. I think that, growing up as a kid, one of the interesting things was my older brother, my play sibling, was that much older, that much stronger, more competitive. So I spent my childhood playing with my older brother always fighting this thing that was bigger, stronger than myself. Maybe that’s sort of this idea of taking on the dragon, was one of the things that formed I think in my psyche, is that I was always going to be fighting something bigger and stronger than myself.
Me: Has the idea of chivalry transformed for you or altered over the years or has it always been the same core concept?
Jeff: I think it’s always been the same core concept and I think that my understanding has grown. Just because you know an idea does not mean you’ve integrated it into yourself. You can know about something, but that doesn't mean that you are that thing. I think it takes time before you get to a point where you, you… it's a weird thing because is it egotistical to say that I am that thing or should I always say that I would like to be that thing? I think that part of chivalry is also accepting certain amounts of truths about yourself - that you have to stand up for something. It’s also a part of your personality to say I believe I am this thing. That's not arrogance, that's to me, actually an act of humility to accept what you are.
Me: Most people spend their whole life trying to find what they are and if you can develop early on then you can proceed from there and develop that.
‘Warriors are not driven by fear. They experience fear, but they transcend fear…’
Jeff: I think that growing, now I also studied eastern philosophy, so my ideas about chivalry are both western and eastern fusions. There's an idea in Tibetan warrior culture that a warrior is not a fighter. Their fighters are people who struggle and are suffering and driven by desires and they suffer because they are driven by fear. Warriors are not driven by fear. The experience fear, but they transcend fear, they’re not driven by it, and that's the difference. So, in the Tibetan culture they say you have is the soft antlers. A child is born with the soft antlers on the forehead and someday that's going to grow into full antlers. That’s the warrior. But, the other children see the soft buds on their heads and they torture them because they are different because they’re other. And, in so doing they actually forge them. [laughs] So they’re born to be tested their whole life. Unlike normal people, they’re not normal people. They'll either fail, or they again, will be crushed or they will become. That’s two things that may happened to them.
Me: Currently what are some of the concrete ways the chivalry place out in your daily life?
Jeff: I’d actually like to give you a really long winded answer to that. Because, I think that the long winded answer finally gets down to a real simple conclusion to me. I think the chivalrous person really focuses on one thing, really, it’s down to one thing. How do I leave the world better than I found it - that’s it. In everything we would think about chivalry - largesse, saving people, helping people, is driven by that one basic idea, that they'd spend their entire day, every day, building, creating, and making the world better. That's it. Chivalrous people are not destructive; they are very creative and they use their creativity to save villages, is what they do.
The Seven Samurai and Saving the Village
The movie that I think best exemplifies this and actually takes me down to ‘The Why’, is the Akira Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai. And, if you don't know the story, I’ll give you a basic on the story. So, there's a village of peasant farmers that are being threatened by raiders who were going to come back in the fall and take everything from them when their crops ripen. So they need to hire samurai to defend the village against the raiders, and they have only a few months to do this. So, a couple of the peasants go to the big city to try to find samurai, though they have no money, they have nothing to offer. And when they arrive in the in this city, there's all these really rich, scary looking samurai walking around with their big swords and they’re all arrogant, they’re all pompous, and they’re all expensive. The only kind of samurai they could ever get to fight for them will be hungry samurai. And there is one, our hero, an unemployed general that takes pity, I guess, on the peasants and offers to try to put together, to work for them for food. So, I mean, what is he going to get out of this? A meal.
The question is why, why would he do that? And that's the fundamental principle behind why he would use his powers to save this village. It is the fundamental I think reason why the seven samurai get together. And so, they find seven others. They were told there are seven of them and they’re going to risk everything to save this village. Some of them are going to die and they know this is going to happen. At the end of it, who wins? The villagers, but not them, so they are not going to win. There's no victory for them. And it's their choice but they made it and that's the principle thing is that it’s their choice. But again, I always like to go, why these 7 men, why would they make that choice?
'When he finds a new samurai to join them, there is a glance they have, and this is like ‘Hey, you're like me, I will fight with you.’
Now, if you see the characters, they’re all misfits too. They’re all outsiders, they’re not like the other samurai. That's the difference between them, because they're not in it for the money, they're not in it for the glory or the fame. 'Cause that's what the other samurai are hoping for, they want to be famous and rich. That’s what it’s all about for them. But, these guys are not about that. Because they’re like that, there’s this almost, it’s never said in the movie, they never speak about it, they never say it to each other, but there's a moment of recognition between the two. When he finds a new samurai to join them, there is a glance they have, and this is like ‘Hey, you're like me, I will fight with you.’ It’s not about money, I want to be with you, and fight with you. I think that the thing that the seven samurai are really after is to find others like themselves so they're not alone. I think that's the basic drive, is that they don’t want to be alone. If they die, they don’t want to die alone, they would like to die in the company of a friend, someone they could trust, somebody that carries the same virtues and values that they have. Because the other samurai would never recognize that, they would never appreciate it. So what it is, is that they’re bonded by this need to not be alone and I think that's the fundamental principle in that.
So, for myself as an artist, one of the things that I ask myself is, ‘Why am I an artist? What am I after? Do I want to be famous? Do I want to make money? Is it about me?’ Because we meet artists, and many of them in my opinion, are narcissistic, pompous, and they have huge egos. And I’m in competition with those artists to win major sculpture competitions. So, you know, when we go and make a presentation to a jury and we have what we call the stakeholders or the client, I don’t know what they think, I think they may go in there like those other samurai and this is all about fame and glory and that sort of stuff. Me, I see the clients as the village, and I’m in it to rescue their village. They have a dragon to slay, they have a sculpture that needs to be made, it needs to be beautiful, it needs to be durable, and it needs to be built on time and on budget. There are no more resources beyond the budget they set for the sculpture. So, I have a responsibility to balance my energy. How many sculptures can I really do in my lifetime? So, when I commit to do a project, at for instance, say the [Calgary International] airport, that's going to use up 1 1/2 years of my life that’s gong to be lost to produce that sculpture. So, I'm going to lose, in that sense. But, at the end, who wins? The client wins. They have hopefully a sculpture that's meaningful, that fulfills all of their ideas, that brings people to their space. These are all the things that they want. This is the success if we win the battle, that we've created something. That wins that battle.
Me: What besides your time, are you losing in this battle?
Jeff: What else is there? I mean, time is the most precious thing that you have, that's the only thing we really have. But, to complete a sculpture you going to need to have resources. I don’t call it money, I don't work for money. That’s the first thing - I’m not in it for the money. What I’m in it for, is the resources. If I have the money, I can bring together my seven samurai, and each of them has to play a different role. Some person might be a fabricator or an engineer. The people that have built around me, my team of people, we've all had that knowing glance already. So, why are we doing the project? Because we want to be together and we want to work on this project. And I want to be able to have enough money to hire them, to do that work with me, not for me. I cannot build a sculpture by myself, I need people to work with on the sculptures, at this point. So, it's not about me and even some of the ideas that I might incorporate into a sculpture may not be my ideas. These people may actually give me the better idea and I have to be humble enough to accept that I might be wrong during throughout that process. So, it's not the finished sculpture that matters. It’s actually the journey in the production of that sculpture is what will redeem. We lose a year and a half of our life, but we spend that year and half in the middle of something bigger than ourselves, slaying something bigger than ourselves, creating something bigger than ourselves. At the end, this sculpture is finished.
And people think that I would go to the opening to unveil a sculpture so that I can hear the admiration of my fans and the slaps on the back, and those sorts of stuff. In my mind, I am doing the opening for them. They want to see the artist, they want to meet the artist, and they want to hear what the artist has to say. That's a performance for them and I'm very careful, I have to be very careful about what I say and what I think in front of all those people. Because I don't want to let them down. It’s an illusion, it's an entire constructive thing that I do. I’m not just building sculpture, but I’m building the memory and experience of all people participate in that. Because if they participated in some level, either the stakeholders, or the people working on it, or the public, they begin to feel connected to that piece, and they build memories. I think that how we’re remembered is what’s important. That people see that there are good people in the world doing good things. I think there is so much negativity in the world. I could do negative art or I could do controversial things, but I don’t think the word needs that. Like my suits of mouse armour, this year I’ve actually come to a couple of conclusions about why I did it, and why do I still after 30 years keep building mouse armour. I think it's because the world needs to know that somebody in the world is doing that. That's why. They need to know that Jeff de Boer is still building suits of mouse armour. Everybody always asks me, ‘are you still doing it?’ They need to hear it. They to see it.
Jeff: And it's a comforting thought. They don't need to own it, they just want to know that it's still happening, that I still care.
Me: That is there is still that kind of magic and wonder in the world.
Jeff: There’s still magic in the world. There’s still somebody who cares about the little guy. Why am I building armour for a mouse? Because it's the little guy, he is the hero, he gets the armour, and he takes on the cat on behalf of the village.
Me: We still have that knight fighting for us.
‘It’s the hero's journey, each time we take on a project, when we go through that process.’
Jeff: Yes, we still have that knight fighting for us. And that that heroic journey keeps repeating over and over and over again. It’s the hero's journey, each time we take on a project, when we go through that process. I'm not saying I’m going to succeed. There are times when I can fail. Everything's on the line. Making a good work of art is kind of a life and death thing. I don't think the average person would ever put a piece of art in front of everybody and then be so naked. If people are critical of it, if they don't like it. The funny thing is, with my clients if I am successful they get the credit, if I fail, I get the blame. Being willing to take responsibility for the totality of the thing. That's the fundamental principle of chivalry, is that you are willing to take responsibility, for your life and the decisions you make. You make decisions, you make no excuses for what you have done. I cannot say, ‘that fell apart because Bob didn’t put it together right’. It fell apart because I didn't tell Bob to put it together right. It’s not Bob's problem, it’s mine.
Me: Let’s say, when I was a designing exhibits, there are so many choices a person can make. One person may make one choice, another person may make another choice, but you have to own your choices and realise you made those choices for a reason, though someone else may have had other reasons and choices, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Jeff: I think a lot of people who want to become, in my world there is a difference – I’m a professional, not an expert. Lots of people who do art, and they're really good and they’re experts. But our 7 samurai, they weren’t hobbyists. It’s a religious vocation they have towards their craft, which is the art of war. The art of war is a really good analogy for art. We even call it Kendo, ‘the way of the sword’. It's the way of the artist too. These things are identical. There’s no difference in it for me. I am living kind of like the samurai, wandering the landscape.
Me: What does the sword represent to you [as in ‘the way of the sword’]?
Jeff: The sword represents to me, in the samurai code, the sword is only drawn her a couple of reasons - to show, to clean, and to use. You never pull out the sword and goof off with the bloody thing because it is your responsibility with that sword to choose life and death and to be both judge and executioner. You have that power and that responsibility.
Me: That reminds me of the Fremen in the Dune novels that never drew their knife unless they were going to use it to draw blood, or according to myth the blade would shatter if it was drawn for any other reason.
Jeff: That’s right, that’s the only time. I think that when one is given the license to carry a sword, you know whatever the world was in the mediaeval world or the Japanese samurai world, those people were the judges and executioners of society. If you're a bad person then you’re going to use it bad and if you’re a good person, you’re going to use it good. Again, you’re given the privilege and the power, but you also have the responsibility of choice. That’s what the sword represents to me.
Me: What aspects of chivalry do you find most appealing and least appealing?
Jeff: I think that the most of appealing aspects of chivalry, again, it's like asking a priest, what are the best aspects of being a priest. Well, I think that the best aspects of everything is that you have a sense of being, right? You know who you are, you accepted yourself. You get up in the morning, if you really truly believe you're to spend today making will better place, it's nice to get up in the morning, because you’re always optimistic, rather than being depressed. I'm not worried about the world being ugly, I'm trying to fix it.
Me: That there is a sense of hope?
‘…true chivalry is action without expectation of reward.’
Jeff: I have hope and I have purpose. That's the best part of it. The bad part of it comes only if you think that you actually have the power to affect change. If you save the village and then they turn out to be drunken sots, that was a real waste of my energy, so I shouldn’t have done it, and you think you never want do it again. That's the bad part, is that you could become disillusioned. The thing is, is that true chivalry is action without expectation of reward. If you can really embrace that, you can never lose. But, if you fall into the trap of expectation, to get something for what you’re doing, then you are going to be really disappointed. I think that people who would even suggest that there's a negative side of chivalry don't understand it. There is no negative side to chivalry. That's the point. But, if you start to feel negative, you are missing it, you are not chivalric. You’ve given yourself expectations, and you shouldn’t have expectations, and should make no assumptions. That's a major a critical part of this, if you’re making assumptions, you're off the boat, you're not being chivalric.
Me: Do you see any of limitations to chivalry as a guiding principle? I expect that you might say, no.
Jeff: There is no limitation to it. But, there is chaos, right? Again, you can get killed. You can call that a limitation. You can take on the dragon and you get scorched. It doesn’t matter how good or chivalric are you. There are times in the real world of this.
Me: You’re putting yourself on the line.
Jeff: Yes, the reason you’re a hero is because there's risk. If there was no risk there is no hero, if there isn’t fear. When I take on a sculpture I am terrified. I win, ‘Yay’, I won the contract. ‘Oh, shit!’, now I have to deliver. I’ve promised the world and now I have to deliver. And, we never know how it's going to turn out. I don't know if I’m going to make money or if I’m going to have to mortgage my house to finish a project, I don't have a dental plan, I have no security in my field. There’s zero security and everybody wants security. You can't have that, you cannot have security. You have to accept, it always comes down to a fundamental acceptance - that you have to accept your choice. If I wanted security I would have become an engineer, I would work in a firm, I would get benefits, great income, retirement packages, and all that sort of stuff. Our seven samurai have nothing. The day they are too weak to be samurai, they’re done. They have a finite limit on how much and good life and energy they can invest in how many villages can they save. Is this village worth saving? That's the choice they have to make each time. Because it's a triage of suffering. They have to choose which village to save, because they can only save so many. I think when you're aware of that, your mortality, then that actually becomes a driving force, too. Look, I’m going to do this thing, I better do it right, because I'm not going to be able to do it again. So, that to me is really interesting. If it wasn't for the, I call it, the wolves howling at my door, when my bank account goes down, I have to bust my ass to keep going. And that's good for me, right? I can't get lazy, I cannot rest on my laurels. I’m only as good as the thing I'm working on. Once a piece is done, it's done, and I have to move on. I cannot stay there, I cannot roll in it, I cannot hang out by my sculpture for six months and hope that everybody’s going to tell me I’m wonderful, so it makes me feel better. Literally, the next day, I have to go clean up my shop and look for my next thing, otherwise I’m done.
Me: It doesn’t buy your groceries.
Jeff: It doesn't put food in my cat’s bowls.
Me: This is probably a silly question for you, but do you see armour as a symbolic representation of chivalry?
‘Armour, like the sword, is only as good as the person wearing it.’
Jeff: Of course, yes, very much so. I always thought, here, let's take a bunch of peasants, put them in armour and parade them down the street in front of the other peasants and they think they have an army. Right? They don’t have an army, they got mannequins, walking mannequins with suits of armor on them. Armour is there to protect you, so that you can go into a hostile environment and use your skills to make a difference. If you don't have any skills, you can get into a hostile environment, then what's the point?
Armour, like the sword, is only as good as the person wearing it. So if you have a really good person in really good armor, then potential is really high. If any of that's out of balance, you can be the greatest warrior in the world and if you don’t have any armor then you're done. So again, that always strikes balance to me. Armour needs to be well fitting, it needs to be balanced, it needs to be durable, it needs to withstand the weapons of the day. It has to be of good proof, but so does the person. Each person in their era has to be capable of fighting the battle as it is in their era. So, it's the uniform, for sure, of the knight.
Me: How does your ‘Corporate Warrior’ concept fit into chivalric concepts and has this changed since you first devised the concept for your art?
Jeff: So, we’re talking about my armoured ties for executives and briefcases - that has not changed. That has not changed at all. What I have discovered though, is that the armoured ties, I have a client in Calgary, a corporation, and every time they have a new managing director I go in and I interview this CEO type, and I design and make a tie for each of them. They now some 35 of these ties on their wall. So, I’ve interviewed 35 of the most powerful and influential people in Calgary and made ties for them. So, again it is not the tie, it’s the process. Talking to them about chivalry, this is what this tie originally started about, and asking them what is, you know I’m thinking of corporate executives, not middle management, I mean executives, those are the knights, and everybody else below them is their army, and we're defending our corporate interests. If you think of things that hostile takeovers, they are very much like the Battle of Hastings in 1066. That was just a great hostile takeover. Those are all the executives getting on their boat going across to takeover another corporation.
Me: The Corporation of England.
Jeff: So, again for the executives, all those chivalric values ring so true today. It's a truth. Chivalry isn't a trend or a fad or a meager idea. It's a truth. That truth will be with us and as part of the human condition for eternity. It’s internal. So yeah, my original concept, I think, over the years, I’ve just simply come to understand it better. I was right, 30 years later, I think I was right.
Me: You’ve proven yourself right, or the world has proven you right?
Jeff: I think the idea is right, I think the idea is true. I've had enough time with it, I’ve asked enough questions to others, I've tested it enough now. I have a case study of one. I think that corporate chivalry is a truth.
Me: What do you see is the best way to communicate to others your concept of chivalry and do you even find this to be necessary?
‘Everything I do is an act of faith.’
Jeff: I don’t think it’s necessary. Again, it's the knowing glance. If I need everybody to think I’m chivalric, what am I after, what’s my reason for it? Because they think I’m cool, because they think I’m a hero? Is that what I’m after? When you think about trying to communicate an idea to people, you always have to ask yourself, ‘why?’. Why should people know, why do they need to know? I think that again, we save the village and then we ride off into the sunset. That's what we do. You have to really live that. I mean, I'm not wanting to go back and have a pat on the back. The hero can never return. So, I think that people will sense that there is something about you, they sense a trust in you, and that they feel they can trust you. And I think that's where it's in service to me. Because if I'm trying to convince a jury that they should trust me, that they should let me take on their dragon, that I’m their man. If I start to give off airs of pretense or the sensation that I’m in it for money or these sorts of things, or that I want them to think I’m really wonderful, it comes across as, it’s not authentic. It loses its authenticity and they start to question you. In my industry people have to have 100% faith in me. Everything I do is an act of faith. They don't know how it’s going to turn out. Nobody does. They have to sign over a lot of money and hope that everything works out. To me that is really a fabulous thing, right. You want to sometimes step back and pat yourself on the back, because, ‘Wow, I lived it, I embody this, I really am this. This is what I really am.’
Me: It is a perfect representation of you at that moment.
Jeff: Yeah, I am this. I think that, I believe that I am this way. I don't think that I am this way, there's a big difference. You can think all you want. Again, you can put the peasant in the armour. You can think it's a knight all you want, but it's not a knight. It doesn't matter that it's wearing the clothes. People think they’re artists. I don't think they are. I think they would like to be artists. I think they would like to have all that comes along with being an artist. You can get away with stuff. [laughs] ‘Well, I’m an artist, what do I know?’ You can always use that as an excuse. Artists should not be making any excuses for themselves. I'm not here to make excuses. It has taken me 30 years to integrate that idea. I think 30 years ago, I wanted to be chivalric. There is a big difference at the beginning. But everybody has to start at wanting to be chivalric. It takes a long time to become chivalric. So, if somebody is not chivalric right now, you have to forgive them. At least they’re on the path, they’re going the right way.
Me: It’s like people that make fun of an overweight person in the gym.
Jeff: Yeah, so if people see me on a path and they get on that path, then that's important, right. Maybe by living it, leading by example, then others say, ‘I would like to be like that too.’ I think that's part of the air of a knight that encourages the world to believe in magic. In trying, we should all make the world a better place.
Me: Slightly different topic, but do you think the proximity of the Glenbow Museum made a difference in influencing who you are now? If so, how?
‘We are not just making armour we are making ourselves.’
Jeff: Yes. In Calgary we had more armour in the Glenbow back in the warehouse than they can put on display. I think in Calgary, because it’s Calgary, you know, a young guy like me when I was 15 years old could walk up and say, I’d like to see the armor collection. They are so excited to see anybody who cares, they would give me the white gloves and send you in the back and come back and 8 hours and see how you’re doing. That you get to play with all this stuff and I don’t know that they would do that today. But, in the day when I was doing that, they trusted me and then let me go and have a look at the stuff. I mean it was me as a five year old kid holding my mother's hand in the Glenbow Museum, seeing that first suit of armor that haunted me. That was a trigger for me. That, and my father being a sheet metal fabricator, I wanted to make armor when I was five years old. I think that that suit of mouse armour makes everybody want to make armour. I think people would love to own or to have the skills to make that suit of armour. For whatever reason we are not just making armour we are making ourselves. If I was ever to get a tattoo I think I would get a suit of mouse armour on my body. I think I could do that, because it's me. That is not just a suit of mouse armour - that is me. People are buying me.
Me: And your website has that as the, not exactly as a logo, but as the header for the pages.
Jeff: That's right, yeah. That’s my watermark on all my invoices. [laughs]
Me: From what or where do you draw your inspiration?
Jeff: I used to joke, there was a joke that I had once, when asked ‘what inspires me to do my work?’ and I say, ‘my mortgage’. It's not actually that far off. Again, I wasn't like the kids in the playground. So, my mind was cursed, or blessed, with this imagination that visualizes and creates constantly. There are so many ideas are running around in my head, I'll never be able to make them all. And again, I get back to triage. I have infinite ideas and I have the pleasure of getting to choose. So, on any given day what feels right and I’ll just go back into my memory banks of all my infinite ideas and I get to choose one. So, that's inspiring because all that is happening in my head all the time. I don't know what it’s like to be in anybody else's head, but I wonder what would happen if somebody got into my mind and experienced the way I see the world. I don't know what's going on in other people’s minds. I think I'm inspired because I'm just so lucky, right. I like to say an idiot savant. Because only an idiot would come up with the ideas that I have and only a savant could pull it off. That’s really exciting for me. Each idea, each creation is its own adventure. That's what inspires me, is the excitement to go on that adventure and finish it, too. It is not just starting your adventure, it's finishing the adventure. I think that’s what inspires me, is being able to come right from beginning to end, a complete story, each time.
Me: I don’t know how familiar you are with the specific concept of the knight errant, but that reminds me of that in a way.
Jeff: Well, I think that's what I am. Interestingly enough, my arrogant ideas about being an artist, make me a bit of an outsider. I'm just going to put it in really simple terms. The culture of art that we have and the support we have for the arts does not create strong people.
Me: It creates dependencies.
‘Do I define success by how many grants I will receive over my lifetime or by how many taxes I will pay?’
Jeff: Yes, many are dependent on grants and I’m not saying that they shouldn't get them because that's the nature of their work. I think grants should be there for those. But there also those artists that use grants as income and they only produce art. They are so desperate to get a grant, they’re willing to do art. That's a way to put it. Now, they're out there and those are the samurai on the street. That's what those guys are. There’s a lot of artists like that and they don't like me. Because my fundamental question when I started, my choice I made when I started my career was simple, ‘how do I define success?’ Do I define success by how many grants I will receive over my lifetime or by how many taxes I will pay? When you choose taxpaying, now you're talking about self-reliance, you’re talking about generating surplus, giving back. But when you choose grants, you are talking about entitlement. Society owes me this. That's not chivalric, that is the opposite of chivalry.
Me: It sounds feudal in a way, doesn’t it?
Jeff: But that's not chivalry. So, if I can generate enough surplus to not just employ myself, but to employ others and I can give those people those meaningful experiences to participate. You know how loyal my army is? My army is willing to march to the gates of Hades and beyond with me because we will all die together if we fail. That's the seven samurai. They will march together for no other reason than just to be together. That’s chivalry.
Me: What I find ironic about The Seven Samurai analogy is that about 10 years ago a movie, which was remade from another remake called King Arthur, which is the legendary foundations of chivalry.
Jeff: Right. Look at what I can offer now to clients. I have a team that's willing to ‘die’ to do this project with me. I don’t know about the other artists. I know what they have behind them, I don’t know what their values are or what their goals are. But I only have one goal, to produce the best thing I can with the money that you’re going to give me. Whatever amount of money you’re going to give me, I will produce the best thing I can.
Me: it doesn’t matter what they think, what matters is what the people that are contracting you think.
Jeff: That's become the mythology though. That's the myth, that's when clients start talking to each other or they say, ‘what artist can you think of that would be good for this? Oh, we had this artist, this is the guy you want to talk to.’ I find myself having to compete less and less for competitions. I find myself answering the phone more and more. They just simply call. ‘You want to get this thing right, just call Jeff. He’ll do everything he can. This project sounds like something Jeff should do.’ Those are the phone calls I now get. It’s taken me 30 years to get them. I'm one fuck up away, pardon my language, from ruining all of that. The value of my reputation has to be depended on it. I also have to defend my value.
Me: You’re only as good as your last work?
Jeff: Yeah, and I have to defend my value. Artists do not defend their value. People think that artists are willing to do everything for free, because it’s fun. This is my profession. You wouldn’t go to a lawyer and say, ‘will you just give me this contract, it would be good for your resume’. Or a heart surgeon. ‘do this heart surgery, it will be good for your resume’. But they say that to me.
Me: All kinds of artists get that, musicians get that all the time.
Jeff: We all get that and the reason why we get that is because we do not stand up and defend ourselves. They're not fighting for their value.
Me: This brings the armour back into it.
Jeff: Yes, if they're not armored, they don't know how to defend themselves. So, with my apprentices, we do projects, but I'm teaching them how to defend themselves. Look, you want to get this project, this is what you going to need. Don't do it just because you want it. You get that too. You have to come out the other end of this with some sustainability. You have to become sustainable, you have to make enough money to be sustainable. What does that look like? That means now we have to do business plans. Every project has a business plan. I’ve completed 3000 business plans. So I’m not just an artist. We have to do it all, to be quite honest. To be a professional, you have to have all of those skills. You can't just come out of university and think because you have a degree in the arts, that you are suddenly this amazing thing. Because you're not. You know nothing yet of the real world.
Me: I first met you, I’m not going to count how many years ago, but I remember I was 17 years old, I’m not going to say how old I am now, [both laugh] but where I met you was in a group called Society for Creative Anachronism, a medieval recreation society. It’s a group where you excelled in, you developed yourself in, and made a difference, I think, in that group. My question is, is there anything in real life, away from this medieval group, that there was affected from your life?
‘…the only thing that makes it the modern world is that we think we're in the modern world.’
Jeff: Actually yeah. You know what the SCA taught me? We all went to the SCA and would dress up in medieval clothes and pretend to be medieval people for a weekend. One would think that that was not real, that it was just a game. I think, looking back at it, that it was just as real as we are here now. That life, that the real world apparently, is also just an illusion and a game that everybody’s playing. What it taught me is that what we see as culture, what we think, how we think we are the modern world, but what the only thing that makes it the modern world is that we think we're in the modern world. The idea that the mediaeval recreation society is artificial, is a mistake. It's real, it was authentic. It was a real experience. People have real emotions, and real politics, and real anger, and real fear and real joy, and all of that was real.
Me: I remember years ago, there was a king and queen who were on the throne of AnTir, which is northwest United States and the western Canada, that made these series of proclamations including the medieval clothes we wear, we’re not allowed to call them ‘costumes’ anymore, but ‘garb’, or just ‘clothes’. There were other proclamations along that line, like calling children ‘smalls’ anymore, we call them ‘children’, because that’s what they are. We don’t need these cute terms to cover up things, because the idea was that what we’re doing in the medieval society is our real life.
Jeff: Yeah. There was this suggestion that what we were doing wasn’t authentic, and it is. Authenticity is such an important thing. We have to be authentic. You know, is my art authentic? Are my ideas authentic? Am I just pretending to be chivalric, because I could be? I could have this conversation down so well in my mind that I come across that way. You would never know the difference.
Me: Right. What it sounds like is that it gave you perspective.
Jeff: It gave me perspective. I learned about the whole world in a miniature world. It was a microcosm of the real world. It was like putting it in a petri dish and watching it play out. What I learned there about corporate structure and about how to manage people and you know, lead armies, for god’s sakes. I led the armies. That's my management style now. I am leading an army now. And this means leadership, right. You have to learn, you have to experiment, and you have to be a bad leader for a while if want to become a good leader. Nobody is born of the head of Zeus a great leader. You have to be an idiot for a long time before you learn some critical lessons. I learned all those critical lessons in the SCA and then I could go on and apply that in my real life.
Me: And that is one of the main training of mediaeval knight, was how to be leader. An autonomous leader, of yourself, or a band of followers, or your geographical area of which you were in charge of. You had to be a leader and if you failed as a leader, you failed as a knight.
Jeff: Yep. In so many of my projects and in many of these little projects that I'm working on with people, if I don't keep leading them, they stop. I can say, ‘can you please take this project to this next step for me’. I’ll come back and I’ll see that it hasn't moved. That's not leadership, on their part. When I say I have apprentices now, in my guild, each one of them has to become a leader. You cannot be my second in command, you have to take on your own command. You need to lead your own army. That's one of the steps towards this whole place.
Me: To bring it to another realm, for a second, it reminds me of the original Star Trek series. At different points, you would see when Captain Kirk was away on a planet or held prisoner somewhere or something, any one of his officers could take command of the bridge, but Kirk was still Captain. Even Scotty the engineer, could take command of the bridge.
Jeff: That’s right. And that makes strength, right. Like again, in eastern philosophy, an enlightened leader does not surround themselves with yes men. They surround themselves with other leaders. There's so much redundancy that you can't take it down. Even when the leader dies, the institution continues. When a dictator dies, everything dies with the dictator.
Me: Genghis Khan is the best example. The Mongol Empire fell apart when he died.
Jeff: That’s right, yeah, because he never surrounded himself with other enlightened leaders. He killed them all. ‘You show promise! Slice!’ [both laugh]
Me: I can’t have you at my side, because you’re going to take my place.
Jeff: That's right.
Me: Okay, are there any pop culture influences in your idea of chivalry? Movies, literature, music, philosophy?
‘…the best superhero movies are always the one where they are discovering they’re a superhero.’
Jeff: That’s interesting. Look at Star Wars, therein lies bushido and a whole bunch of those things. The Hero with a Thousand Faces, the book by Joseph Campbell, says you keep seeing this replaying itself. Why do we like the movies about the hero becoming, like the best superhero movies are always the one where they are discovering they’re a superhero. But after, they’re a superhero, they’re not as much fun. Now it’s just bring in the villain of the week. But it's the awakening that matters. We love to see this misfit become a dragon slayer. Slaying dragons aren’t as important afterwards. So he slays another dragon, big deal. It's the evolution of the person becoming, is what I think is real interesting. We see that we replayed in any really good movie. Why was The Seven Samurai considered one of the top 12 movies ever made? Because that one cornered this idea. It demonstrated it so beautifully in that movie. That movie is so true. Everything afterwards is really just a replay of that. I think great directors and great writers understand this. So when you see a good movie that replays that theme, I don't feel alone. I believe that those people who created that movie have exactly the same thoughts about this that if have. That's why they're doing it.
Me: Off the top of your head, can you think of one of examples of those?
Jeff: District 9. I love the guy, the hero goes from an idiot who thinks that the aliens are, he’s so disparaging of them until he is infected to become one of them and his transformation goes from an inhuman person right, at the beginning, to an alien, not human person. As he becomes more and more alien, his humanity takes over. At the end he has an alien body, but he has complete humanity. So there's the beautiful juxtaposition, this idea of huge transformation. That just because you’re an asshole now, doesn’t mean you can be an asshole tomorrow. And to me that's faith. When you see someone who is a real dick, you should have compassion. Hopefully they can transform like that.
Me: That always makes the most fascinating story.
Jeff: It’s the best story.
Me: Even a series that’s been on for six or seven years like The Walking Dead, watching the transformation of the character, Rick Grimes, from the law enforcer, to a guy who disregards the laws.
Jeff: That’s right. I haven’t watched it, but there’s the other guy with the crossbow, who at the beginning, a sort of hillbilly, nasty person and discovering that he has value and chivalry, he has chivalry. That emerges through him. So they have two different trajectories happening.
Me: To become the protector that thinks about others more than himself.
‘I like to think that I’m now spending my life to see how much I can leave behind.’
Jeff: All he thinks about now is how to make the world better place. Before, all he thought about was how to make the world better for him. The one line that I really believe and I had this thought a couple weeks ago when it was really good for me was, I think that a lot of people spend their lives trying to see how much they can take with them, and that's a problem, that's a mistake. I like to think that I’m now spending my life to see how much I can leave behind. And that frees me from all of that. Just that notion, I'm here to leave it behind not take it with me. That's a neat thought and I’m going to be thinking about for a long time.
Me: Everybody knows you can’t take it with you, but people don’t act that way.
Jeff: They don't. And people don’t realize that like myself as a creative person - who cares? I don’t need to take anything with me. That was never what that was about. That frees me from a lot of things, right. I’m not interested in stuff.
Me: It is ironic that as an artist you work in material culture, but you are not interested in material culture, yourself, or materialism.
Jeff: Yes, that’s right. Exactly, yeah. How illuminating is that? What have I got to lose? I have nothing. Again that’s our seven samurai, they have nothing. That's the best position for them to be in. Because if they had something, that would get in the way of being able to do what they need to do.
Me: As a hero they have nothing to lose.
Jeff: They have nothing to lose and that is really powerful. How do you fight something like that? Because if somebody has something they're afraid to lose, that’s a weakness. In the art of war that's where you attack. Because you know their weaknesses.
Me: You’re right, the best literature, the best movies and such are those that build up the idea of the downtrodden and rising up against the odds.
Jeff: That's right. I always thought that of myself in the art world to, is because even in the art world because of my ideas and because of my thoughts - that made me an outsider. Because I care about beautiful objects, because I make beautiful well-crafted things, I kind of get pushed into the world of craft by the other artists that would write me off. ‘He’s not conceptual enough’. Well, I’m not interested in being conceptual. You’re treating me like I'm not smart enough or I’m not talented enough like you, that I’m not conceptual enough like you. Because I'm not like you, I'm inferior. That works for them, because then they can just into their denial mode and just write me off. But I’m not going away. I’m your competition. When you go in to meet those clients, you’re trying to win the competition, you’re to beat me, that’s what you’re trying to do.
Me: It’s in their best interest to write you off.
Jeff: That's what they need to do, right? And, it's convenient and comfortable for them. I am a thorn in the side of their consciousness sometimes about that.
Me: Do you consider the concept of writing them off too?
‘…you have to forgive and love people unconditionally, even if you don’t like them. I think that’s also another high form of chivalry.’
Jeff: No, because if you do that, then you become the thing you don't want to become. You start to become like that. If you talk about something you're fighting, you’re fighting that constantly, because you would love to go there. There are so many times I've wanted to look at so many artists in the face and say things to them, and on occasion I have and felt pretty good, but at the end of the day you realize - why even bother? Why worry about it? The thing is that now I’m surrounded by like-minded people, so I’m not worried about them anymore. They have to make their own choices about how they want to be and you have to forgive and love people unconditionally, even if you don’t like them. I think that’s also another high form of chivalry. You also have to accept that you cannot help somebody sometimes. And that's okay. Because once you’ve accepted that, you don't have to feel bad about not helping. There are some people that you are not going to help. That's part of it to. That’s the triage of suffering in the world. You have to make a choice. There’s no point in trying to help somebody, if they cannot be helped.
Me: Either they are resistant to it or you don't have the energy or ability?
Jeff: Yeah. You have to accept that I’m not so powerful. I do not have that power, as much as I wish I did or thought I could, that’s not a superpower that I possess. I cannot make you happy, that's a choice you have to make. I cannot make you enlightened, I cannot make you see the world the way I see it – and why should I even try. But maybe I'm not right either. You have to accept the possibility that maybe I'm not right. Maybe I am just living the biggest delusion ever. It could be.
Me: Exactly. And to be willing to admit that is far beyond what most people are able to do, too.
Jeff: How else can you move forward unless you keep dropping it, right? You have to let go. That’s the major thing, how do you relax? You have to let go. And it’s a funny thing, because the more successful you become, the more someone like you, honours me by even asking these questions, suggesting that I could give you the answer. You have to watch it, because that starts to trickle into your ego – ‘wow, maybe I’m right, maybe what I'm saying here is true.’ My question for you, basically, comes out of that. Do you think that this is true, do you think I am the embodiment of this thing? Because you come to me to ask me this. And I have to, in complete arrogance, and tell you that I am. And that’s the irony of it. A really good example of that would be in Kendo. I have my sensei - I'm not interested in becoming sensei anymore and I don't want to be the leader of Kendo. I just want to be a student. I have one sensei and she's 4-dan Black Belt, and I said to her, ‘I think teaching is the road towards mastery.’ She said, ‘Oh, I will never be a Master.’ Well, that's an interesting thought, because isn't it safe to say, I’ll never be a Master. What if you said to yourself, ‘I am going to be a Master’? I know that sounds arrogant, right? But, if you don’t say it, you never will. There's a Brass Ring, you have to take the Brass Ring. The sad part is, if you take the Brass ring, everybody else is going to crucify you. Jesus took the Brass Ring and they crucified him. How dare we suggest that we could be that good? -We have to kill you. If people are never going to let themselves be that good then how are we ever going to be that good?
Me: It’s like people often say, western culture enjoys putting people on a pedestal and then tearing them down.
Jeff: That’s right. Like in the art college, they do like to parade me out on occasion, and say here's an example of a success, right. They need unfortunately to parade me out in in their village. They need to roll out their hero on occasion and I have to play that role. But do I do it because I need to be seen in the public is as great heroic creature? No, I do it because I'm hoping that that somebody will get on the path. I hope that they will be inspired, I'm trying to inspire them. [laughs] But you have to embrace it too, at the same time. It's a really interesting razor's edge, because it's deep humility to accept that you’re spectacular. But everyone thinks you’re arrogant. It's such a delicate delicate thing, because they could be absolutely right. It's entirely possible I am the most, like the best story that I loved at the art college is one day I’m having a bowl of soup and there are two girls sitting there having a conversation about their first day coming to art college to see the place. This girl says they went on a tour and this teacher took me around and showed the old department. He was the most arrogant person I've ever met. And her friend says, ‘oh no, you haven't met Jeff de Boer!’ So it's easy for people to mistake your conviction for arrogance, and that's something you have to live with. Unfortunately, you’re going have to live with people who are going to do that. They’re going to say and believe that. You’re going to be that.
Me: That goes back to your childhood and realizing that you were different. And you just have to accept it.
Jeff: And people will people will turn you into whatever they need to turn you into and there is nothing you can do about that.
Me: People have a hard time understanding something that is different or sometimes they are unwilling to try to understand something that is different.
Jeff: Again that's not worth defending. Right, again it’s triage. You have to decide what it is you’re fighting for. That’s not a fight I’m interested in fighting. I can't care anymore. I don't have time to worry it. People worry about it so much, they’ve stopped themselves. That's what holds most people back, is they don't want to be, there’s fear of success. Once you’re successful, you can never go back. Because everyone is going to start to expect that from you now on. Once you cross that line, there is no going back. People are very afraid of that, and for good reason, I think. That’s pure ego holding you back. That is your ego not allowing you to be spectacular. You’re not allowing yourself. As long as you don't, you’re safe. You can always point to your reasons for failure - because of this and because of that. Well, now you're not taking responsibility for yourself and that's not chivalry anymore.
Me: I’ve got my final question here - given the state of the world, the world appears to be in chaos right now. Sometimes the statistics prove that to be not necessarily the case, but the world needs something right now. Do you think chivalry could help solve any of the problems of the world, through art, literature, actions, anything?
Jeff: You know, the world is no more chaotic now than it was througout the entire history of mankind. There will always be dragons.
Me: We just have more cameras now.
Jeff: Yeah, that's all. We’re just more aware and we report more on it, that's all. It's just the media reporting on what sells. They are just taking advantage of their technology to make extra money and scare the hell out of everybody. Nothing is changed. Nothing. It's as bad and good as it's ever been. Only thing we need to do is report more on the things. But you don't want keep reporting on all of the good things either. You don’t want to live in denial, you just need to have balanced reporting between good and bad things. There are lots of times it’s just best to turn off the TV, that’s it. It's funny you turn off the TV and go outside and the world hasn't come to an end. Look, it’s still here.
Me: And you still see good people around you and you still see some jerks around you, as ever.
The reason why there is nastiness is because people desire – power, control, all the things that are not chivalry.'
Jeff: If everybody collectively in the world was able to become self-reliant and each person could take responsibility for themselves, then all this would stop, all this nastiness would stop. The reason why there is nastiness is because people desire – power, control, all the things that are not chivalry.
Me: Looking to other people for your ideas, your commands, basically.
Jeff: Yes, and unfortunately there is a majority or a section of the population that is like that. They're unenlightened and there is nothing, they've always been there. There is always a section population that is unenlightened. The seven samurai represent that enlightened population and the other samurai represent the unenlightened population. They are both samurai, there's just a difference. And there’s lots of outsiders. I think that culturally, there always comes a time and when the good people stand up. There comes a point where they stand up and start taking action. That's part of a cycle. Once we’re down for a while, then the heroes rise up. If we don't have this nasty world, then there’s nothing to fight. Then the heroes will find purpose and that’s when they’ll rise up again. That's has been cycling up and down through humanity. Just because we're on a down cycle doesn’t mean we’re not going to go back up again. It will, things will always get better and things will always get worse.
Me: Maybe cycles are shortening out or taking a longer time between cycles or a shorter time between cycles than they used to. Maybe that’s the only difference?
Jeff: Yeah, who knows? Some cycles happen in a day and some cycles happen in 100 years and they are all happening, right, all at the same time. So daily we might have a bad spike, but that doesn't mean that much over the duration of 100 years.
Me: Thank you.
Jeff: Yeah. Thank you!
Me: You noted that you had a question for me?
Jeff: Yeah, so what do you think? Do you think, based on everything and distilling the whole conversation down?
Me: Well, I’ve had many thoughts during the course of our conversation, but one of the concepts I see important to chivalry is the idea of self-autonomy and you touched on that a few times. I’ve written about that myself and I will write about it again and I think that it’s a very serious concept that needs to be explored more.
‘…the first act of compassion, the first act of chivalry is first take care of yourself.
Jeff: I do have one more thing I would say to that, then. One of the ideas I have is the first act of compassion, the first act of chivalry is first take care of yourself. You need to fix yourself, first. That’s all. If everybody did that, we’re done! It would be that simple.
Me: It’s like the common precept that in order to love somebody else, you have to love yourself first.
Jeff: That’s right, love yourself first. That includes being self-reliant and self-sufficient and all that comes with that. Never feel ashamed to help yourself.
Me: Or to ask for help?
Jeff: Exactly. Know you’re human - accept that. And never be ashamed to say, look I need to do this for myself. That's chivalry, too. Constantly sacrificing yourself, doesn't do anybody any good. It doesn’t do you any good.
Me: Eventually, there will be nothing left to sacrifice.
Jeff: If you are not strong when you need to be strong, because you’ve worn yourself out on useless things, that's not chivalry. You need to keep strong, you need maintain your strength.
Me: I think that about covers it. Do you have anything you would like to add?
Jeff: I would just like thank you then for that knowing glance.
